Classic Diesels for Preservation?

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

Assume that the situation is similar to the States

In making the above statement I was alluding to the costing ONLY. I.e. in the States it has been shown it is more cost effective to operate a diesel etc. Is it here? If so there is a starting point for discussion. If not - no point in carrying on the discussion along the lines I have been!
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Would having a diesel bring in half a dozen or more young people who would work one day a week? I don't know, but I suspect not. And a diesel fitter who knows what he's doing?

I do not know either! But then steam is not doing too well either in this regard.

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Cost analysis is fine for the long term, but the current reality for FOTR is that all our money is tied up in our enforced move to Hercules for the foreseeable future.

General discussion here - it does not have to be FOTR.

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Is that really an option for a club needing to find over a million rands to build a new depot?

Maybe - if it was really cost effective!!! And thereby brought in extra revenue!!!

[John Ashworth]

Maybe - if it was really cost effective!!! And thereby brought in extra revenue!!!

I wouldn't disagree with you if we were talking long term, when a high initial expenditure can certainly be justified by future extra revenue. But it's not an option for a club that is currently ploughing every penny into a new depot and will be doing so for the next two or three years.

General discussion here - it does not have to be FOTR

Who will it be then? Let's have some concrete suggestions as to which club will start preserving diesels, and how they will do so.

But then steam is not doing too well either in this regard

But steam is at least ticking over. FOTR just manages to keep its steam operations going, and Reefsteamers and Sandstone have rather more resources in that regard. I don't know enough about Umgeni and others to comment. My question is where are the extra resources going to come from for the diesels?

[John Ashworth]

By the way, spot the devil's advocate. I would actually like to see a main line diesel or two in FOTR's arsenal. But having been very involved at the front line of operating steam (ie working at least one day a week at the site), and also in the negotiations with our landlord over our enforced move to the new site and the timetable thereof, and also on the FOTR Board watching the money come in (always too little) and go out (always too fast), I would like to see a realistic concrete discussion, not just a wish list.

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

Who will it be then? Let's have some concrete suggestions as to which club will start preserving diesels, and how they will do so.

Only if its cost effective remember?

I do not think I can actually suggest who. The interest obviously must come from within which ever club has has both people interested and willing.

But then steam is not doing too well either in this regard

In relation to sucking in new members and volunteers.......

My question is where are the extra resources going to come from for the diesels?

Back to the cost angle. If this is not effective end of this particular part of this discussion. If it is, then there just may be an economic case to be put forward. And then it may be worth doing.

But do not take my comments as being directed to FOTR in particular - they are not! I am just commenting in general..............................

If the costing is done, someone may stir, and then there may be a very very very remote chance.............!!!!

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

Our other posts crossed John.

In terms of the concrete discussion part I believe the costing is the key.

Step 1. Then advance or stop.

Need to go home now - cheers!

[Mike Haslam]

FotR is a Heritage Association, not just a steam preservation club, although that impression may be given as the focus is on steam locomotives. Why? Because we have steam locomotives on loan from Transnet Heritage. We were never attractive enough to anyone to have a locomotive donated.

In fact, some years ago, we did make several requests for a diesel/electric locomotives, both to Transnet and to private companies. Transnet of course did not reply, and the commercial operators want $$$ for their locomotives, not the honour of preserving it. We applied for a big diesel to a company in Natal, being very nice, stating our preservation case and how good it would be, but they wanted over R1,000,000 for it.

So, yes, get the fitters and interested volunteers, but you will either need someone who is prepared to commit a lot of time to crying on his knees or can raise a lot of money, to obtain a locomotive which can be used.

Actually operating such a locomotive can be expensive - especially if you do own it and pay Insurance for it, not to mention the storage of fuel, or a huge electricity bill and obtaining parts for it. All this can be overcome, like the folks in the UK who preserve Deltic locomotives, BUT, these people are as dedicated to them as current volunteers in FotR to steam.

I would ask anyone who has the stamina and perseverance, not just to discuss preserving diesel/electric traction, but to speak to anyone on the FotR Board of directors about it. FotR is a great bunch of people who will support such a move and provide the base for operation. If you make a start today, tomorrow will soon have the tangy smell of diesel exhaust, or the whine of a unit, drifting over Hercules.

[Barend Botha]

I'm just wondering, what is the monthly amount to insure a locomotive? Not an easy question I suppose but+-? And another thing, whenever I speak to people involved with steam about Diesel locos the subject gets changed fairly quickly, so im not confident in that regard...

[Dylan Knott]

With class 33's nearing the end of their service life, has any thought been taken to retain one or two for preservation?

Some steam fans do not want to know anything about diesels. I am interested in the small shunting locos as I find them interesting.

Went to Bellville Diesel Depot on Monday and will post report shortly. The class 31's are in a very sad state!

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

[quote="Dylan Knott"]Some steam fans do not want to know anything about diesels./quote]

Something I noticed too! Are they viewed perhaps as a threat? Yet I see MOST diesel fans are quite happy with steam as well.......

[John Ashworth]

Barend, Dylan and Kevin - I'm not sure that your comments about steam fans are really fair or helpful. If this conversation is anything to go by, the two self-confessed steam fans who have responded, myself and Mike, have both indicated that we would like to have some diesels. (In fact it's too simplistic anyway to try to set up a dichotomy between steam and diesel fans, as most of us are primarily railway fans and are interested in anything to do with railways - even old Trainman has been seen driving a French electric loco!) However we have raised some of the practical problems which have to be overcome.

It's very easy to talk about preserving anything - steam or diesel - as happens a lot on other internet discussion boards (which shall remain nameless!). Those of us who have been at the sharp end of renovating, maintaining and operating steam with very limited resources for a number of years are well aware from personal experience of the huge amount of work involved and the very limited number of people available to do it. Those same few people are almost certainly not going to be able to preserve diesels alongside steam, not because they don't want to, but simply because they are already fully (more than fully) occupied - even the minor work needed on our Funkey set 3117's first steaming back by some time as putting key people to work on the Funkey meant taking them off 3117. Note my point above that in UK many heritage railways have a completely different set of members in their diesel group to their steam group. It would be helpful to have more discussion on how we would find the four or five blokes (including an experienced diesel fitter) who would be at Capital Park or Hercules every weekend to maintain the diesels alongside the four or five blokes who are already there maintaining the steam. The two teams would almost certainly take an interest in each other's work and lend a hand to each other, but one team can't be expected to do both jobs. You might say that a diesel will attract new blood, and you might be right... but every Saturday? And without again getting into the cost analysis question, a club such as FOTR which has no cash to spare now is going to find itself hard pressed to spend money on a new project such as a diesel now, whatever the long term benefits. Once the Hercules depot is fully up and running (two to three years?) such expenditure might be possible (although it will have to compete for resources with the long-awaited restoration of 15CA 2850).

So please do not take the challenges and questions raised as being against diesels. However I think it would be more constructive to try and answer some of those questions rather than simply to rail against steam fans.

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

Who railed against steam fans? Methinks there is too much sensitivity here!

It was said by Dylan............

Some steam fans do not want to know anything about diesels.

and myself......

Something I noticed too!

Barend also alluded to the attitude of steam fans he encountered.

And at no time did anyone (myself, Dylan and Barend for starters) direct any comments personally. Note.

John, surely all points of view should be respected - an opinion rests with the individual and is based on his experience.

However, since my views appear to offend I will take no further part in this discussion!

[John Ashworth]

Sensitive? Maybe. But when I see three posts in a row which appear to be setting up an artificial dichotomy between "steam fans" and "diesel fans" with no apparent justification, I believe that is not conducive to a healthy conversation. The phrase argumentum ad hominem comes to mind.

I haven't seen the word "offend" used until you used it yourself, Kevin. I questioned whether these posts were fair and helpful in the context of the conversation so far, not whether they were offensive.

[Dylan Knott]

As the Moderator its all fine at present. Might suggest a separate thread for any future discussions.

[John Ashworth]

Thanks, Dylan. In my mind that closes the discussion here on whether there are differences between steam and diesel fans. As you say, maybe that can be discussed on another thread if anybody is interested.

I would really like this thread to focus on practical ways that FOTR could obtain and operate a viable main line diesel locomotive. At present I see it as a huge challenge, possibly insurmountable in the short term due to constraints articulated by both Mike and myself. I would welcome practical suggestions as to how to overcome these obstacles. I suppose part of my frustration with this conversation is that I don't see it going beyond, "It would be great to have a diesel!", something with which we all agree, to, "How is FOTR going to obtain and operate a diesel?" (with the "how" including "who", "when" and "where" as well).

[Dylan Knott]

what would be more practical a diesel or electric? I do agree that your hercules site is the first priority. So if anything else was to be acquired it would have to form a queue behind 15CA 2850.