Classic Diesels for Preservation?

Diesel motive power and operations in Southern Africa
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Barend Botha
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Classic Diesels for Preservation?

Post by Barend Botha »

Dylan Knott wrote:Two of the Danskraal ones were supposed to be retained for preservation. All were on a tender for scrap last month.
Thats a shame really, Sometimes thinks that companies like Rovos and groups like FOTR etc might make good homes for a diesel or two, especially now... Or is it preferred or cheaper to hire Transnet traction for events like Maroela?

Does anybody have pictures of these units?
Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Barend - you have hit the nail on the head.

Apart from the fact I like diesels, I am always banging on about trying to preserve heritage locos - before it is too late.

It also makes sense in some situations as well (as you alluded to) when running passenger trains........

Oosterlijn have one (a 31?), but have no current access agreement.
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Steve Appleton
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Steve Appleton »

Acquiring a diesel and/or an electric unit is on the wish list and has often been discussed by FOTR. These locos certainly would help us overcome the Transnet "steam ban" imposed on main-line and night running - although an electric unit would be limited in that unless it is dual-voltage it would be excluded from the northern line and, naturally (unless someone invents a zero-voltage loco), also excluded from the Cullinan branch. The biggest drawbacks are that we are steam-oriented and simply do not have the resources (expertise and money) to maintain and run such machines. Perhaps there is a fairy godmother out there who is able to provide substantial help in those areas?
"To train or not to train, that is the question"
Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Steve Appleton wrote:The biggest drawbacks are that we are steam-oriented
Maybe this will change over time to heritage orientated?? !!

I may be wrong, but I understand they are cheaper to maintain and run then steam.....
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John Ashworth
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by John Ashworth »

Most UK heritage railways now make significant use of heritage diesel locomotives ("classic traction" is the buzzword, I believe). Nobody can deny their utility, and they have a strong following amongst those who don't remember steam. Many UK heritage railways have a diesel operating group which is completely separate from the steam group, with completely different members. They often have days, weekends and weeks dedicated entirely to classic diesel traction with not a steam loco in sight.

There's no doubt they would be useful to FOTR. Already our little Funkey diesel hydraulic shunter has proved itself in the depot.

The big question for me is: who would maintain and operate diesel traction? We would need both expertise and commitment from a team, probably a different team to those who maintain and operate the steam locos. We have barely enough hands to keep the steam running and I don't think it's practical for the same few hands to maintain diesels too. Robert is a diesel as well as steam fitter, but is currently overstretched working with Uncle John on FOTR's steam as well as the Willem Prinsloo agricultural steam engines. Can we find new expertise, new diesel fitters?

The first challenge, then, is to find the blokes who want to renovate, maintain and operate diesels, who have the expertise, and who are committed enough to spend every Saturday (I emphasise that word EVERY) working on them. We have a small team who have the desire, expertise and commitment to work on steam (but only just); how will we recruit a new team for diesels? Would acquiring a diesel be the motivator which would draw new members?

The second challenge, as usual, is finance. The overriding priority for FOTR at the moment (and for the next couiple of years at least) is the enforced move to Hercules. Large sums of money cannot be diverted to new projects unless there is the prospect of a quick financial return (eg renovation of coaches which will quickly begin to make a profit). The renovation of a diesel loco is likely to be a medium- to long-term project and thus would not be a good candidate for diverting money from Hercules.
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Dylan Knott
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Dylan Knott »

Diesels are expensive to maintain. Last time I checked a radiator cost in excess of R200k
The problem is tourists come to see steam and not diesels. However, there are advantages.
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Barend Botha
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Barend Botha »

I must admit that I have no knowlede about how to get a loco but if a loco cannot be operated now why can it not at least be stored or put on display before there are none left? I'm sure preservation groups are meant to last well into the future. Who knows what the future might hold... The guys at the steam depot in George told me that they are very happy with 029 and 042... I for one as a young person like diesels and my interest in presevation groups will widen if they have diesels and electrics.
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Dylan Knott
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Dylan Knott »

I am heading to Bellville to see if the two class 31's are still there. Surely, these could be hauled to George for static display?

Metrorail Salt River has two 5E1 and a 5E that should also be preserved.

For me the interest ranges from a 4 ton Funkey to a charging 25NC!

Transnamib have / had class 32's.
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Barend Botha
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Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Barend Botha »

And operating a Diesel once in 2 months or so does not mean Steam locos are not going to be used anymore, the steam fans can still see them...
Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Dylan Knott wrote:The problem is tourists come to see steam and not diesels.
Let me throw the cat among the pigeons - just because I can!!!!!

Dylan - I agree with what you say re TOURISTS i.e. someone from overseas who is a railfan etc.

But, and this is a general question directed at people reading this thread, - how many of the local passengers care what is hauling the train? And rather then answer on assumptions, has anyone actually surveyed their passengers (without asking a leading question) to find out?

It may be easy to assume people want to travel behind a steam engine, but is this a fact? ............ Or do they just want a train trip...........

Reality is probably the fact that clubs locally are run and operated by people who are themselves steam enthusiasts and so run what they enjoy - steam! And they can continue to run steam if the revenue from running trains is there.... The operation of steam is a means to an end in other words.

If my assumption is true, there is nothing wrong with this approach. But it does sadly mean that it is unlikely that heritage diesels will in the long run survive.

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The cost of running steam/diesel debate is interesting....

See this post....

http://www.friendsoftherail.com/phpBB2/ ... =40&t=3633

OK - this is in the States so costs may be radically different compared to here. However what is of interest is the fact that this decision was made.

Grand Canyon is basically a commercial operation, and they made what in effect is a commercial decision. This was based on a cost comparison re...

1. Comparative maintenance costs.
2. Comparative operating costs (including required tools and infrastructure).
3. Comparative revenue (i.e. net into the coffers based of fares, number of being hauled minus fuels, maintenance, running cost depreciation etc).

The reason I say this is interesting is that some of the heritage operations here are bordering in a commercial operation, and if the use of diesel is more cost effective then, this would not preclude the use of steam. Rather, it could become a useful cross subsidization mechanism for steam as it would be a greater revenue generator (if it is cheaper then steam).

And note - at the end of the day if anyone wants steam to survive, it will have to be cross subsisted, like it or not, and this money will have to come from somewhere. Look at Sandstone as a successful local example.

Are there local cost comparisons - include refurb, maintenance, running maintenance, related infrastructure and tool costs, running costs per passenger seat etc etc ?
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John Ashworth
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Re: Classic Diesels for Preservation?

Post by John Ashworth »

I have split this off from a former thread on class 32 diesels (http://www.friendsoftherail.com/phpBB2/ ... 782#p10782) and created a new thread, as it seems to have developed in an extremely interesting direction of its own.

There seems to be general agreement that preserving classic diesels is a good thing, but nobody has really addressed the two questions that would matter to FOTR: (1) where to get the people and (2) where to get the money to preserve diesels at this moment (see my post above).

Barend's suggestion at least to store them is valid, although storage space is currently at a premium for FOTR due to pressure from our landlord.
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Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Kevin Wilson-Smith wrote:
John Ashworth wrote:(1) Where to get the people and (2) where to get the money to preserve diesels at this moment ?
John - maybe the cost comparison would be the key to the above (maybe) if someone has done it. Or maybe someone should do it if it has not been done...

Assume that the situation is similar to the States a case could then be made (again maybe) for the operation of a diesel unit, given that the revenue it contributes could maybe cover its own operation AND provide additional revenue towards steam.

A scenario for example - 4 runs a month with diesel, 2 runs with steam - where the diesel generates real revenue.

If the above is true we could then look at the how - the money and the people, as something could maybe be put together given that a revenue stream would be in sight.

But, all this presupposes that the profit is there in South Africa. Until there is a cost comparison, this is all merely academic!
Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Classic Diesels for Preservation?

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Another thing that has been alluded to - what diesels are "stored" and what is their condition?

I know in the discussion on hand one would be looking for a "road" diesel as opposed to a switcher, but here is a good example of a heritage unit "stored" and in very very good nick. They seem to think with a minor work it would run...

http://www.friendsoftherail.com/phpBB2/ ... ppc#p10121

So......... what else of a road nature may be around in private hands?
Kevin Wilson-Smith

Re: Class 32-029/042/047 Diesels

Post by Kevin Wilson-Smith »

Barend Botha wrote:... I for one as a young person like diesels and my interest in presevation groups will widen if they have diesels and electrics.
And is this just not the point. How many times have you all heard that there is no young blood etc. etc. everyone is getting older etc.????!!!!!
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John Ashworth
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Re: Classic Diesels for Preservation?

Post by John Ashworth »

Kevin wrote:Assume that the situation is similar to the States
But in most cases we find that heritage rail preservation in South Africa is very different to the States - and UK and most other countries.

That is especially true of volunteers who are willing and able to do the work. When I was in the UK for a year back in the '90s I belonged to a small preserved railway, the Dean Forest Railway, which had well over 1,000 paid up members, of whom 60-70 were regular working members, spending at least one day a week on the railway. I'm not sure how many members FOTR has at the moment - 50? Regular working members (one day per week at the site)? Five? A better percentage than in the UK, maybe, but a tiny number. Incidentally the DFR has a very active diesel group and regularly runs classic diesel locos and DMUs.

Would having a diesel bring in half a dozen or more young people who would work one day a week? I don't know, but I suspect not. And a diesel fitter who knows what he's doing?

Cost analysis is fine for the long term, but the current reality for FOTR is that all our money is tied up in our enforced move to Hercules for the foreseeable future. Renovating any loco (steam or diesel) would likely have a high initial cost and it would be years before any potential cost savings began to take effect. Is that really an option for a club needing to find over a million rands to build a new depot with an impatient landlord breathing down their necks?
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