UK: MPs and first class rail travel

[John Ashworth]

Tory MP causes outrage over claims that first-class travel ban is 'infuriating'

Veteran Conservative Sir Nicholas Winterton says standard coaches are for 'a totally different type of people'

* Polly Curtis
* guardian.co.uk, Thursday 18 February 2010 23.47 GMT

The veteran Tory MP Sir Nicholas Winterton was under fire tonight after arguing that MPs should be allowed to claim expenses for first-class tickets because standard coaches are for "a totally different type of people".

After declaring himself "infuriated" with proposals from the new expenses watchdog to ban payments for first-class tickets during a magazine interview, the MP for Macclesfield told a radio interviewer that people travelling on standard tickets were "in a different walk of life" and their children might disturb an MP's work.

A Tory party spokesman sought to play down the comments, saying they should not be treated as representative of either David Cameron or the party's views.

At the height of the expenses row last year, Winterton and his wife Lady Ann, MP for Congleton, announced they were standing down at the next election. He had been ordered to pay back £850.81.

Speaking today on 5 Live, Winterton said MPs needed to be able to work in peace when travelling.

He said: "If I was in standard class I would not do work because people would be looking over your shoulder the entire time, there would be noise, there would be distraction."

He said of standard-class passengers: "They are a totally different type of people. There's lots of children, there's noise, there's activity."

Winterton denied he was saying MPs were better than ordinary people. "I didn't say they weren't as good, but they are in a different walk of life. They are doing different things. Very often they are there with children."

He added that first class was "very valuable for business people and I include in that category MPs".

In the interview with Total Politics magazine, he said: "They want to stop members of parliament travelling first class. That puts us below local councillors and officers of local government. They all travel first class … So we are supposed to stand when there are no seats … I'm sorry, it infuriates me."

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is to issue new guidance on expenses. Sir Christopher Kelly, the standards watchdog, has suggested scrapping payments for first-class travel for MPs.

A Conservative spokesman said Winterton's remarks were "the out-of-touch views of a soon-to-retire backbench MP".

Nicholas Winterton calls standard-class rail travellers a 'different type of person'

Tory MP says politicians are not better than ordinary people, but they are from a different walk of life

* guardian.co.uk, Thursday 18 February 2010 17.26 GMT

A veteran Conservative MP hit out at the new expenses culture at the House of Commons today, saying he was "infuriated" that MPs might no longer be able to claim for first-class train travel and complaining about the "totally different type of people" in standard class.

Sir Nicholas Winterton provoked outrage when he said MPs would not be able to get enough work done in standard class because of the noise and disturbance from children.

The Tory party moved to distance itself from Winterton, the MP from Macclesfield, who repaid £850 after the Commons expenses inquiry found he had been overpaid for council tax bills on his second home. A spokesman said he was "out of touch".

Winterton had previously faced criticism for claiming parliamentary allowances with his wife Ann, who is also an MP, for rent of £20,000 a year on a flat they transferred to a family trust after paying off the mortgage.

In an interview with Total Politics magazine, Winterton said the reforms of the Commons being introduced in the wake of the expenses scandal would "make things much worse".

"They want to stop members of parliament travelling first class," he said. "That puts us below local councillors and officers of local government. They all travel first class. Majors in the army travel first class.

"So we are supposed to stand when there are no seats ... I'm sorry, it infuriates me."

Speaking today on Radio 5 Live, Winterton said MPs needed to be able to work in peace when travelling between parliament and their constituencies. "If I was in standard class I would not do work because people would be looking over your shoulder the entire time, there would be noise, there would be distraction."

He said of standard-class passengers: "They are a totally different type of people. There's lots of children, there's noise, there's activity. I like to have peace and quiet when I'm travelling."

Winterton denied he was saying MPs were better than ordinary people. "I didn't say they weren't as good, but they are in a different walk of life. They are doing different things. Very often they are there with children.

"I believe that the facilities extended by the rail companies to travel first class are very valuable for businesspeople and I include in that category MPs."

Sir Christopher Kelly's report into MPs' expenses last year recommended that, instead of routinely claiming for first-class travel, "MPs should always consider value for money in purchasing tickets. They may still be able to claim for first-class rail travel where they can justify it, but can only claim for economy-class travel on flights within the UK or Europe."

Sir Ian Kennedy, the chairman of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, has yet to decide which of Kelly's reforms to implement.

Winterton's comments prompted a strong online reaction. By mid-afternoon there were hundreds of comments on the BBC website. "Live in the real world like the rest of us," said one. "I regularly travel from London to Liverpool and am also expected to work on the train. I go standard class and manage fine." Others pointed out that there are "quiet carriages" in standard class. Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, said on Twitter: "Sadly some MPs still just don't get it."

A spokesman for the Conservative party said Winterton's remarks were "the out-of-touch views of a soon-to-retire backbench MP". He added: "They do not in any way represent the views of David Cameron or that of the Conservative party and should be treated as such."

Winterton, who has been in the Commons for 39 years, told Total Politics magazine that he was now "looking forward" to standing down as an MP at the coming election. Ann Winterton is also standing down.

Winterton said that in previous years MPs were told they did not have to account for how they spent their allowances.

"When I came in in 1971, the head of the fees office, as it was known then, said to me: 'Mr Winterton, these are your expenses and allowances,'" he recalled.

He said: 'This is the figure. If you spend a pound over it, you won't get that pound back, but you can spend that allowance how you like. It is there for you to spend at your discretion.'

"Now, retrospectively, they are seeking to justify members providing a full explanation going back five years. I can't go back 12 months, let alone five years."

Winterton challenged the £1.1m cost of an audit of MPs' expenses by Sir Thomas Legg, describing the former mandarin's salary for chairing the review as "megabucks". He added: "The man is raking it in. Do you know how much he has earned for chairing the review? He has earned so far £142,000. And the actual cost of the review is currently over £1.1m. These are megabucks."

The increased scrutiny of MPs would produce a Commons packed with career politicians with little experience of normal life, he warned.

"Parliament is going to become a house of career politicians. They are anything but professional," said Winterton, 71.

"The people who increasingly dominate this House are people who are intelligent, but they go from school to university, university to researcher, researcher to adviser, then to candidate.

"They have no experience of life outside. Have they ever paid wages at the end of the week? Have they ever been through negotiations over a business deal? Have they been in the law? No."

[John Ashworth]

Sir Nicholas not simply a first-class twit

Tory MP Nicholas Winterton has been pilloried for his comments about second-class train carriages – but he has a point

o Julian Baggini
o guardian.co.uk, Friday 19 February 2010 16.30 GMT

Right now, I'm trying to do what at least one Tory MP believes is impossible: get some work done in the standard class carriage of a British train. According to Sir Nicholas Winterton: "If I was in standard class I would not do work because people would be looking over your shoulder the whole time, there would be noise, there would be distraction."

The right honourable member for Macclesfield has been widely pilloried for his remarks, but as anyone who has been in the same position as I am right now knows, he has a point.

The 12.30 from Bristol Temple Meads to Durham is, like many trains these days, packed. If I did not have a seat reservation – which I could not have if I needed to be at all flexible – I might well be standing right now. On many trains out of Paddington, which I take quite regularly, having to stand half an hour or more until Reading or Didcot is normal.

As it is I've got an airline-style seat with a small flip-down table which is too small to accommodate both my tiny netbook computer and a cup of coffee, let alone the papers I'm trying to refer to. I'm balancing the computer on the table's edge, hoping it doesn't slip, spilling my coffee all over the woman in the seat that's so close to me that I have to type with elbows tucked in. It's an ergonomic nightmare. My neck is stiff already. If I did this every day I'd be incapacitated in weeks.

As for noise and distraction, I'm in what is laughably known as the Quiet Carriage, in reality the not-quite-as-noisy-as-the-others carriage. However, the expectation that it should be quiet actually makes what noise there is even more annoying. Adults are chatting and an infant is making that high-pitched-noise-I-make-because-I-can that children of that age take particular delight in.

As Winterton pointed out, people tend to have different attitudes in standard and first class. Lots of people in standard are leisure travellers, relaxing and enjoying themselves. In first, it's understood that the carriage is a workspace, helped by the fact that you do actually have space to work. Winterton's hamfisted attempt to explain this led him to talk about people "from different walks of life", a phrase that sounded as though it had come straight down his nose. But his key point is spot on: if you want a working environment, you can only be sure of getting it in first class.

I use the trains quite a lot and often work. When I can book in advance and get first class for a similar price to standard, I do, but it's rare that I can. Even if I could afford it, I'd be loth to pay the huge prices for standard open first seats. Is it worth paying that difference for MPs? Of course. We keep telling them they have to buckle down and do a good job. We should not make it harder than necessary for them to do so. Certainly they should be careful with our money, book cheaper fares in advance if they can and travel standard if they're not intending to get any work done – which I imagine is rare. But we can't demand that they work efficiently for us and then deprive them of the means to do so.

But hang on. Despite my complaints, I've got this article written in standard class, where I have already said I usually work. If I can do it, why can't they? They can, but can doesn't mean should. It's possible to get work done in standard class, for sure, but then again it's possible to work without proper breaks, in rooms that are too cold, or with poor equipment. The idea that MPs should be regularly made to work in the kinds of conditions I've been writing in seem to be based not on noble ideals of justice, but on a cruel desire to make life hard for them. Not wanting to travel standard class is a sign of snobbery; not wanting to work in it is a sign of pure common sense.

And with that, the baby starts crying again.

[John Ashworth]

Who travels first-class on the train these days?

MPs, BBC employees, civil servants and military top brass have all been banned from claiming for the most expensive train tickets. So who's left?

o Leo Hickman
o guardian.co.uk, Monday 29 March 2010 20.00 BST

First-class carriages have never been the most densely packed places on our busy rail network. That's the point, of course. Some people will pay good money to avoid what the ("soon-to-retire") Tory MP Sir Nicholas Winterton described last month as the "totally different type of people" who travel standard class.

But could first-class rail travel soon be shunted into the sidings alongside steam trains and decent food? In recent days, it has been announced that all MPs and members of the armed forces – including admirals and generals – cannot now claim first-class rail travel on expenses. So, who's left?

A BBC spokesman says that its "long-standing policy" has been that all staff can claim only standard-class rail tickets. He added that while there might be some exceptional circumstances – a "very long journey", or where the first-class ticket booked in advance is actually cheaper than a walk-up standard fare – they must always be signed off by a line manager.

A spokesman at the Cabinet Office said the Civil Service Management Code specifies that "the most efficient and economic means of travel" must be used. "Staff may only consider business-class travel if their rail journey is more than two-and-a-half hours. Or if there are no standard-class seats available."

All Metropolitan Police officers, meanwhile, get a free travel pass for London public transport, but are not allowed to claim first-class train travel when working outside the capital. But a spokeswoman at the Judicial Offices for England and Wales confirmed that "judges can travel first class on trains when on judicial business". Then again, judges have long had a reputation for considering themselves a class apart from the rest of us.

[Kevin Wilson-Smith]

Of course the critics, being from a different class, would not understand the need to travel first class?!!!!